Listen: Domestic and family violence in separation

Sabina Read

Today on the podcast, we are joined by two guests, Dean Cooper and Zoe Hughes. Dean Cooper is acting director and products and programs manager at White Ribbon Australia, and a leading voice in the prevention of gender-based violence. With a background in corrections and extensive experience working with high risk perpetrators. Dean is a men’s behaviour change facilitator and a passionate advocate for accountability and cultural change. He delivers workplace training on bystander intervention and healthy masculinities, and co-hosted the podcast Behind the Doors of Domestic Violence with Queensland Police. Dean brings a deep, practical understanding of the systems that both challenge and support change, and a fierce commitment to safer communities. Zoe Hughes is a passionate social worker and fierce advocate for children, families and victims survivors of domestic violence. Currently Coordinator of Counselling Services at Communitcare. Zoe has a background in child protection and trauma informed care, and has expertise in supporting those impacted by abuse, anxiety and behavioural challenges. Zoe currently leads Rising Strong, an early intervention program working with teenage boys to challenge toxic masculinity and promote healing. Her work is grounded in social justice and a belief in the power of accountability. Empathy and systemic change. Zoe is here to share her insights, her passion, and the impact of doing this vital, transformative work. In this conversation, we outlined the many layers of what actually constitutes family and domestic violence, which range from physical, spiritual, financial, or technological behaviours that oppress and remove autonomy and decision making. We learn that 1 in 6 women and 1 in 16 men experience some form of family and domestic violence or abuse. Together, Dean and Zoe provide strategies, insights and tangible actions to help navigate next steps and much-needed change. Whether you’re in the early stages of considering leaving, in the throes of separation, or continuing to experience violence or abuse post separation, we also address useful and impactful content for perpetrators to make necessary changes to be the kind of human you want to be, regardless of the patterns experienced in generations that have gone before you. This is a sobering and difficult conversation, but it’s a topic that impacts many of us, either through a lived experience lens or in someone we love, care for, or work with. Please do share it with others who may need to hear this now. And here’s our conversation with Dean and Zoe.

So welcome to the Separation Guide podcast, Dean and Zoe. Let’s start with the absolute basics. And I’m going to start with you, Dean. What actually is family and domestic violence?

Dean Cooper

So family and domestic violence consists of a range of different behaviours. Oftentimes when we think about it, I think it’s flawed that it has the word violence in there, because we tend to jump straight to just the physical violence that we see. And when we’re doing education programs at White Ribbon Australia, we see that in the room. What is domestic and family violence? It’s physical, it’s pushing, it’s punching. It’s, you know, being physically violent. But we know that domestic and family violence is a range of other behaviours as well. So it can consist of verbal abuse, emotional abuse, mental abuse. That word “abuse” sums it up a lot more broadly in terms of how we understand domestic and family violence. It’s really a set of behaviours that aim to oppress someone through causing fear and intimidation, and to remove their autonomy and decision making. So again, that can consist of using the children to send messages or threats or taking the children away. That can involve using systems abuse. So false reports to police or family court matters, or threatening a lengthy battle through family court to many types of abuse to keep someone trapped in a relationship. So these behaviours aim to oppress and hold down a person, to take away their liberty, autonomy, and their sense of safety. And there’s a wide range of encompassing behaviours, including technological abuse as well, which is more prominent now. We see the easy access to tracking devices and being able to mirror people’s phones and the affordability of different spyware that’s available. We see that technology abuse plays a huge part in monitoring someone, tracking their whereabouts, sending them those messages where you’re aware of where they are and what they’re spending and what they’re doing. Creating that overview and system. And of course we have spiritual as well. So spiritual abuse is something that’s not talked about in the wider community. But we know for our friends either, you know, in our call communities, we know that spiritual abuse is really, really harmful. So it might be isolating someone from their place of faith or worship. It could be the misuse of spiritual texts as well, to perpetrate abuse and to put a whole framework of a belief system around the abuse, that they are the ones that deserve to be punished. That they should obey and follow these particular rules and those misuse of religious text, you know, are really problematic and harmful to people who have a strong sense of faith.

 

Sabina Read
There’ll be people listening, both Dean and Zoe, to this conversation, already thinking, I’m only a couple of minutes in and I didn’t think I was experiencing any form of domestic or family violence or abuse. And now I’ve heard what you’ve just said, I’m beginning to question if my relationship is actually peppered with some of the signs and the behaviours that you’re talking about. I’m just wanting to acknowledge that it is confronting at the start of a pod conversation, and that it’s a much broader construct than a lot of us interpret it to be initially. Zoe, how would you add to what Dean has said already?

Zoe Hughes

Yeah, I think there’s a misunderstanding that, you know, just the prevalence of family and domestic violence within our society. So statistics show that 1 in 6 women and 1 in 16 men will experience family and domestic violence. And it is a sense of someone grinding you down, grinding down your strength and pulling you away from your support system. And I think there’s not a blanket approach when it comes to family and domestic violence, because every situation is really, really unique and everybody’s experience is really unique as well.

Sabina Read

So what are some questions if we’re listening? Because we’ll have people listening at different junctures, I imagine, to this podcast, some will be thinking about a friend or a loved one, others will be thinking about their own experiences. And in our own experiences, some of us will still be exploring and trying to make sense. Is this relationship okay? Have I overlooked something? What did I know? What didn’t I know? Others will be well through the process of separation. And also imagine we’ll have others listening – and I hope we do – who are post separation, but still experiencing signs and behaviours of violence and abuse in some form or other. So let’s think about the people at the earlier stage of this process. What are some questions that we might ask ourselves to identify more specifically, if this is an issue that’s impacting me right now? 

Dean Cooper

A great tip that I’ve learned from listening to those who have lived experience. The point they realised that their relationship was unsafe and harmful to them, was when they realised that they were withholding information or, you know, no longer confiding in people that had their best interests. So when they started to withhold that information or change it or minimise it, that was a big symbol for them that I know these people have my best interests at heart, and yet I’m reluctant to present this information to them. And upon reflecting back on their experience, they realise that this was a single big moment for me, that I realised that I was unsafe in my relationship. As Zoe said, that it can impact victim survivors in many different ways. So we have to consider intersectionality at play here, that someone’s experience of being isolated from their friends. For someone who is connected to their faith and church, significantly, the experience of isolation differently to others who might still be in the workplace and have connections with others and have friendship groups, etc. And we don’t want to play Trauma Olympics with our experience and think, well, I haven’t had the physical experience and therefore, you know, my experience is invalid. We just really want to make it clear that your experience is valid. You deserve safety. You deserve respect. Regardless of the severity. So trust your gut: Listen to it. It’s kept us alive for a really long time as a humankind. And your feelings are valid, and your feelings of being unsafe and recognising those signs are completely valid. 

Zoe Hughes

One of the biggest things that you’ll notice when there is family and domestic violence present is the presence of coercive control. So coercive control involves any type of behaviour which scares, hurts, isolates, humiliates, or monitors someone. So if you feel that another person is taking away your freedom or unreasonably controlling you, then it’s fair to say that we could be in a family or domestic violent relationship. And again, there’s no tick box to say. If I tick all these boxes, then I am a victim of family and domestic violence. Unfortunately, it is a little bit more complex than that. Examples include, you know, being isolated from your friends and family, being controlled about what you can eat and what you can wear, who you can spend time with. Preventing you from accessing support or work or education. Gaslighting behaviours. Monitoring behaviours. So if there’s any of these behaviours that just don’t seem healthy, um, then that’s kind of a good indication that something isn’t okay here. And it’s never the victim’s fault. And it can happen to anybody. And there’s no shame in that. I think we’ve done a really good job as a society of limiting the shame around family and domestic violence victims, accommodating and encouraging that help-seeking behaviour. 

Sabina Read

As I’m listening to both of you talk, I’m also imagining that some people may listen to this, who recognise themselves in the perpetrator role. And it’s my hope that we can speak to everyone in this conversation. Zoe, what are your thoughts on someone who might be listening and thinking I never saw myself through that light, but now that I’ve heard some of the factors that you’re identifying, maybe I am doing that unintentionally, perhaps even. 

Zoe Hughes

And, you know, there is a healing process to that. And a lot of that is taking accountability for your actions. Um, you know, we have to take accountability. And there may be shame or an aspect of normalisation of these behaviours involved. But, there are more and more support services now available for those who are using violence. And I think it’s fantastic that we can have that conversation around with people who do use violence around supporting them in recognising and changing their behaviours. So in terms of gaining support for those who may recognise that they are using violent behaviours, and when we say violent behaviours, please. Um, actually I’m going to reframe that. Okay. I’m going to reframe that. Um, how did I start that? I think it’s important to recognize when, if you do decide to get support for if you’re using abusive behaviours, there is court ordered support out there for those that are going through the court systems, but there’s also voluntary support systems as well. And they will be different in the individual states that you live in. 

Dean Cooper

There’s a line called Mensline that you can call to seek help. If you are, you know, you are looking around and you’re assessing your situation. You realize that you’re making people around you feel unsafe and you’re seeing those signs, and maybe you’re getting that feedback that: “I feel like you’re just monitoring and criticising everything that I do, and I can’t do anything right”. And if that’s what you’re hearing in your relationship, good on you for noticing, for taking that first step. There is no shame. We don’t want shame as part of this process of change, because one thing that offender rehabilitation and neuroscience has shown us is that a shamed brain can’t learn. So there’s no point shaming yourself. And there’s a difference between holding yourself accountable for behaviour, but then holding yourself lovingly as part of that change process as well. So realise what behaviours are happening and does it align with you as the person that you want to be? If it’s the white picket fence life that you like, what is it like when you show up for that? Is that behaviour serving you? It might serve you in the instance where you express jealousy and gain control of the situation. But does it create safety? There’s questions to ask yourself that you know as a man that if you’re sitting there and assessing your relationship, if my children are in the next room talking about me and their friend asks, what’s your dad like? What do they say about me? Am I safe to be around? Can they confide in me? And what steps do I need to take to change that process? And as Zoe touched on, that is health services out there. You have pathways through the court system, if you wish, or there’s voluntary systems that you can call. You can speak to mensline, 1800 RESPECT: There’s no shame in calling anonymously, getting a third-party objective opinion on your behaviour, and getting a bit of an assessment and place to start. But the most important place to start is recognising the impact of that behaviour. And if you can recognize that you’re having an impact or thinking that you might be causing your family to feel unsafe. The first step is getting that assistance and finding those people that will hold you gently and lovingly accountable. 

Sabina Read

A lot of us associate, and we’ve already discussed this to a certain degree, violence and abuse with homicide, which is so widely reported now. And yet homicide is really the tip of the iceberg. And there are so many behaviours and actions that occur before we get to a homicide, including, I would imagine, sexist and misogynistic commentary or, as you say, control or even unchecked language in the way that we speak or we hear others speak. So I wonder what your advice would be if you’ve noticed in a loved one, in a sibling, in a perhaps not in a partner in this sense, but in another human from an observation perspective that some of what’s going on doesn’t sound healthy. How can I raise that with respect? But knowing that if I walk past it, in some ways, I’m saying it’s okay. 

Dean Cooper

I think there’s two parts to that. I think one is respectfully challenging it and being curious, not furious about the behaviour. And then there’s also role modeling as well. So speaking from my perspective as a man, and I know behaviour sits on a continuum. And at the start of the line, like you mentioned, you have adherence to really rigid gender stereotypes. We might be victim blaming,  we might have pro-violent attitudes, sexist language and jokes. And then down the end of the line, we have domestic and family violence that we’re all not okay with as a community. And no one watches the news and is proud of the country or the statistics that we see. So what we need to do is to review that continuum and realise where we are on that. And for me personally, my journey was to realise that I know I’m on that because I grew up in a rugby culture where we told those jokes and we sang those chants, and for me, my full circle journey was to realise that if I’m actually not sending a counter-narrative anywhere, I’m actually giving permission down the end of the line for people to keep going. So my job was to step back from that. But then our job as bystanders and community leaders is to make sure we’re taking others off that train with us as well, so that when it gets to the end of the line, nobody’s left on it. And we’re not saying that if you’ve ever told a joke, and the research is very true, that if you’ve told a joke or that you’ve engaged in sexist language and jokes, that you’re going to take that next step and be violent. But we know those that go to the end of the line have usually stopped at each stop along the way. That’s how we can play our role in prevention and connecting on the issue. Do we still need to talk like that anymore? Can we just all agree we don’t use language like that anymore? I’m just wondering what we’re saying in the silence when we don’t speak up. What are the harmful permissions that we give in silence? And are they actually counter narratives that we can provide? So in the silence, if someone’s telling those jokes, we actually say quite a lot. In the silence, we say we agree that we’re okay with where it’s going. We say that it’s okay to keep taking the next steps. And what we know about violence, particularly towards women, is that it thrives in silence. It requires the silence that others around to not challenge it and to not name it for what it is. So one thing we can do is to not be silent, and we find those ways that are non-confrontational and don’t give us fear. We find ways to intervene that are safe and appropriate for us, and we take those steps. And that might not be calling someone out publicly in front of everyone, but it’s just as courageous to have a one on one conversation the next day to say, “hey, when we’re in those situations and use language and speak to your partner like that, it feels really uncomfortable for me”. And we can do that in those ways that are safe and comfortable for us. 

Sabina Read

How Zoe, do you think the workplace might contribute to shifting this narrative? Almost more than a narrative shifting the behaviour and the reality that we’re in?

Zoe Hughes

I think we’ve spent a long time normalising some of this behaviour and some of these comments. And it’s not okay. And it’s now time where, you know, we need to become allies. Men and women need to become allies and call out this behaviour. It’s not okay. Those comments aren’t helpful. Those comments are hurtful. There’s lots of good male role models out there, and there’s lots of good female role models out there giving them the platform and respectfully challenging others when they do hear those comments, those hurtful comments. In terms of workplaces, in terms of working in more male-dominated environments, which I have done in the past, is again normalising some of the hurtful comments are so normalized and hurtful that it’s not okay. And sometimes there’s that opinion out there that maybe it’s easier for females to be in these jobs, but often, you know, females do have to work really, really hard to get into a position where they feel respected and heard. And there needs to be pathways through management and policies and procedures in place that protect everybody’s rights in terms of sexual harassment and bullying in the workplace? In the past, they haven’t been open and they haven’t had people or haven’t felt confident to go down those pathways. And we need to advocate and really, really change that. And that comes from policies and procedures from the government and then policies and procedures within organizations as well. 

Sabina Read

And then each and every one of us who works in an organization or knows someone who works in an organization or even doesn’t work in an organization, because I think it’s often easy for us to point fingers at management, in politics, thinking someone else will mandate other people’s behaviour, and then this will be dealt with.

Dean Cooper

Workplaces play a critical role in creating safety. If you’re like me, and like many other people, you spend most of your time there. They absolutely should be sanctuaries for us. And if we want to mark ourselves as a safe person to receive a disclosure from someone who may be experiencing violence working alongside you, we don’t mark ourselves as a safe person by engaging in victim blaming, by using sexist language or jokes, by giving permission to violent attitudes and dismissing things that happen around us. We need to mark ourselves as safe people to receive a disclosure and be ready and comfortable and willing to have the conversation. There’s a lot of great initiatives now that encourage vulnerable conversations like, R U Okay Day? And, you know, It’s Not Weak to Speak, but what happens when they turn around and say, I’m not (okay)? How ready are we for that conversation? So getting the education, whether it be bringing in training, external support or jumping online, there’s many different resources around how we can make our workplace a sanctuary for people that are experiencing violence, so that we can apply a little bit of first aid, or maybe be just that space for someone to seek safety and to leave a relationship. Workplaces can play that critical role. And as Zoe said, having the right policies in place, having access to family and domestic violence leave, flexible working arrangements, changing locations, it’s really important that workplaces provide those myriad of options. And it’s not the workplaces responsibility to jump in and fix the problems and to go home and counsel people through their relationships, that it absolutely is their job to start to contribute to the solutions and having the right supports in place for people to access. 

Sabina Read

Okay, let’s soom in now to separation and divorce. This is The Separation Guide podcast after all. So I’m listening now thinking the reason I tuned into this is because I’m in a relationship that feels violent or abusive. Where do I begin? I’ve heard what you’ve said and and now I’m identifying with some of what you’re saying. What would my next step be? 

Zoe Hughes

Everyone’s situation is really, really unique and the biggest priority if you have recently left a relationship or thinking about leaving a relationship is your safety and the safety of your children, potentially, if there’s children involved. and there isn’t a blanket approach. However, there are many support systems out there that can support you going through this process. So maybe one of the first things, if you were thinking about leaving a relationship, would be to tell someone that is trusted, someone that you trust and is a safe person for you. If you don’t have anybody like that, then it might be that you need to reach out to a professional service or A 18oo RESPECT. Bearing in mind that if there has been some monitoring devices, There’s, etc. there are different ways to do that. You can either do it through your phone or you can do it in person. So, the priority is safety. Secondly, you can start to empower yourself by understanding what family and domestic violence is and the impact of trauma and what gaslighting looks like and what coercive control looks like. What’s a healthy relationship and what’s an unhealthy relationship? And really establish what your values are. You know, what are my values in life? What are my goals? Because they’re really important as well. Be kind to yourself as well.

Sabina Read

Some gentle reminders there, but they’re so important. Dean, what do you think are some of the first considerations if I’m actually at that point of considering leaving? Maybe in the early stages of working through this process?

Dean Cooper

Absolutely. I think as I touched on some really good points there, and I think that safety is the number one priority. The best assessor of your safety is yourself. There’ll be many people who maybe you think might have your best interest, or are your people will want to tell you and demand you to do different things. Because unfortunately, we all have the bias of how a perfect victim should behave. But yet, when we’re really unsafe, it’s hard to think logically, it’s hard to think reasonably, and we don’t live it. So you are the best assessor of your own safety and your own lived experience. So take confidence in the fact that what steps you choose are the best that you chose for yourself and your children, and you’re doing your best to keep yourself safe. Once you make safety your priority in whatever way that might look like, definitely find your trusted people. As we touched on before. Abuse thrives in silence. I think the Queensland Police Service had some really confronting data out there that I think it was in 2022-23 that 70% of intimate partner homicide cases were unknown to any services. So we know that when systems don’t have overview and there aren’t risk mechanisms in place to identify and respond, we know it becomes a really unsafe and risky time. So if you feel comfortable to report it to police, you can do so. If it’s comfortable to put it in an affidavit in family court and have it recorded that there’s domestic and family violence occurring. You can get some advice from either a duty lawyer or free legal counsel. You can take those preparatory steps to make sure that you have all the information that you need before you take that next step. So there is free legal help out there available. There are resources online and support services. But think about who those people are that are going to be your safe people to confide in. And maybe you’re thinking mum and dad, or maybe you’re thinking a sister or brother, whoever it might be. But to help you identify who those people are, they should unequivocally believe you. They shouldn’t guess and challenge. in this space is where you’ll be criticised and judged and assessed in those spaces where that happens. It’s not in your immediate support. They shouldn’t demand anything of you and that you do anything. They should provide you information and not instructions. So the other thing as well is that they don’t judge your decision. They’re willing to walk alongside you, if you decide to stay if you decide to leave next week, but then delay it again another week because it’s not quite right. You might have children going through exams or school commitments, and it’s just not the time and it doesn’t feel right  or safe to you. They respect your decision to walk alongside you. Those are your safe people. So identify who those people might be and who has your best interest and confide in them. Because unfortunately, it may have been a family member previously, but they’re encouraging you to return or to doubt your feelings or to minimise your experience. They’re not the same people that are going to be the support you need to take those steps. Because as Zoe said, it is hard. It’s a big step that you’re taking and your feelings of, you know, being unsafe are valid, that you deserve safety and respect and to be believed, to be supported, and not be judged. So find those safe people and talk about your experience and share that. And make sure that people are aware. And the more people that are aware, they can be looking for the signs and willing to assist as well. 

Sabina Read

Yeah, there’s a lot of considerations here, but that’s useful information to process and the kind of information you can go back and listen to again and again on a podcast like this, I think to tap into depending on where you’re at. So let’s talk about the people who have separated and  they’ve pooled, you know, all their resources and all their strength together and identified what’s not working for them. And I’m imagining them thinking, finally, now I’ll be free of these behaviours. And then in a post separation scenario, they find some of these patterns continuing to show themselves either financially or physically or threats, or via the children. What now can I do? I thought that I’d done what was required, and it’s taken me a long time to get to that point. And I’m still in some of these painful, damaging, violent, distressing, experiences or scenarios that I thought I’d left behind. 

Zoe Hughes

Absolutely. It’s a great question. And unfortunately, the reality is just because you leave a violent relationship doesn’t mean the violence stops. What we know from research is that post-separation abuse can and does often continue, and that it might get hard before it might get harder before it gets easier. But recovering from, you know, recovering from family and domestic violence is a journey. It’s a journey of strength and resilience. And each step you take, no matter how small, take it as a little victory, because each step brings you closer to safety and empowerment and peace. You know, after leaving a relationship, it’s about reestablishing your safety, building a space where you can feel safe enough to heal physically and mentally. And that might be in your home. Creating a home with comforting items and smells and music and candles, having practical safety plans in place, and rebuilding your self-worth and your identity. So, reflect on your strengths. And because you’ve been told probably for a long time that you’re worthless and you don’t have any strengths, but you absolutely do. Take a moment to enjoy the little things, find joy in the little moments, and re-establish your values. Prioritise rest. So make sure you’re getting the proper amount of sleep and nourishment. One of the biggest protective factors that we know when recovering from family and domestic violence is seeking and rebuilding social and professional supports. And finding housing and financial independence. and there is a lot of support in Australia that can help victims of family and domestic violence do that. 

Sabina Read

Where might someone look? Are you thinking of any resources in particular in this space?

Zoe Hughes

Yes, so there’s the ending violence payment, which is a federally funded program. So each state would have a different organisation that looks after that. But, victims of family and domestic violence can claim up to $5,000 in support for themselves and their family if they have come out of a violent relationship. And there are also lots of legal pathways as well. So Legal Aid, you know, to name many that can support you with restraining orders or family courts or, you know, any type of legal assistance that might be needed. And there are also many, many therapeutic pathways as well. So there are lots of organisations statewide that support women and children  to heal and recover from the trauma of family and domestic violence. 

Sabina Read

You mentioned earlier Zoe, from a gendered perspective, that the statistics tell us 1 in 6 women and 1 in 16 men. Is that correct?

Zoe Hughes

That’s correct.

Sabina Read
Are impacted? Are they the same stats you have, Dean?

Dean Cooper

Yes. That’s correct. That’s what we know. Yeah. Are impacted by domestic or family violence.

Sabina Read

So again for the 1 in 16 men who might be listening to this thinking, when is my perspective or when is my experience heard? Do they need to take a different path or are there different resources? You talked about Mensline, but what might they need to do that’s not typically covered in a conversation around separation and divorce as a male partner leaving a relationship.

Dean Cooper

The fact of the matter is that in this country, there is very little supports that actually are set up for men to access. And there’s a few different reasons why. One, there’s a significant under-reporting that occurs as a result of domestic and family violence, that this can’t be happening to me, that my experience isn’t right. And when I tell people and I tell my friends at the footy club or at the pub, they’re going to laugh at me, this is my experience. So, I think culturally, as men, we have that issue when it comes to mental health. Holding each other accountable for behaviour. You know, we are an under-reporting species and we don’t speak about our issues. So I think that’s one factor in why there’s no demand for the service, that I don’t think that men would actually access it until we culturally have conversations around respectful relationships and what we are willing to accept and what we’re willing to contribute and what a safe me can look like to us. So I think until those conversations happening culturally with men, the systems that will be set up won’t be adequately addressed. There is Mensline available. There are supports available though, if you want to call up and get an objective opinion. I think it’s a great idea to do that. The reason why I say that is because in this country, we’re privileged enough to have those supports. But like most men I’ve spoken to that have been victims of violence in their relationship or from their parents and family, it’s a break glass in case of an emergency situation, when everything is falling apart, where they’re no longer safe to be in the home, they can’t stand it anymore. And then they call Mensline. We could do it much earlier. You know, you can get that validation that you’re looking for. You might not get it from your friends and your footy mates or wherever it might be that you hang out, but you absolutely will get it from these help lines that we’re privileged enough to have access to in this country. I’d really encourage you to call them and to get that advice. 

Sabina Read

And also they’ll be men. We hear this in every conversation we have around family and domestic violence. “This is not me. I’m a good man. Why do I need to be part of this conversation?” 

Dean Cooper

Yeah. And that’s a valid question. And we know that it’s you know, I don’t have the exact numbers, but I would guess and put it out there, if they’re a good guess, that it’s 5% of the men that are causing the harm in the community, and it’s 95% of men that are doing their best day to day and showing up, and they are good men. But unfortunately, when we’re silent in the issue, we become complicit in permitting it to occur. So the good men that are listening to this going, you know, domestic violence isn’t related to me. And that was my journey. That was my journey into this space that I was privileged enough to grow up in a home and I looked around and I didn’t see it. I didn’t see my friends perpetrating it. I heard about it on the news, but then I looked around and I equally, I looked around. I didn’t know a single teammate, a single friend, a single family member, or anywhere that I socialise that anyone spoke about the issue went out of their way to educate themselves on it or advocate against it. I didn’t know a single voice in my community that said, you know, these are the statistics and I don’t stand for that, and that’s not okay. And I want to start this conversation around what we’re going to accept as a community and what we’re not, and what are we going to tolerate and what aren’t we? And those conversations weren’t happening around me. And I realised that there’s still that absence of conversation. And one thing at White Ribbon Australia we’re really keen to address is not just men’s violence against women, but men’s silence around the issue. There are so many great men that can have influence here. It has been women-led for a really long time, and men have valid voices in this space where likely and in positions to challenge other men and to set culture. And we can do that by who are we as fathers? Who are we as brothers? And how do we mark ourselves as safe people? What culture do we want to leave behind, and what culture do we want to pass on to our children? And how do we start that process that Zoe said of healing. We come from backgrounds of trauma and intergenerational trauma. That can stop with me today. What happened to me as a child isn’t my fault, but my healing is my responsibility, and I can break that cycle today and choose to do something different for my family and their children and generations beyond. 

Sabina Read

And the intergenerational pattern is so very, very powerful and very difficult for people to say that happened to me. I choose a different pathway. Zoe, you were doing a lot of nodding at the beginning of that. The way Dean was answering that question around how do we respond to the many men who say, this isn’t my story or I’m a good man? This isn’t relevant to me.

Zoe Hughes< Absolutely. And you know, the statistics, like we talked about 1 in 6 women, 1 in 16 men, but in reality, it affects so much more than that. And the ripple effect this has through families, through communities, through society is huge. So this is everybody's issue. This isn't our future. This isn't who we are. It affects colleagues. It affects men. It affects women. It affects children, friends. So the chances are that whether you've experienced family or domestic violence, from a personal point of view or not, is that you will be impacted by this at some point in your life. So we need to have those conversations. They're really important conversations to have. And we can't keep burying our head in the sand and going. This wouldn't happen to me. This wouldn't happen in my community. This wouldn't happen in my family because it is happening. The statistics are alarming and they're only getting worse. And what we know now is that family and domestic violence with within young boys and young women is on the rise as well due to the toxic culture we've created in pop culture. So this issue isn't going away. So it's really healthy to have those conversations with your mates, with your colleagues and with your manager, you know, with your local MP, whoever you feel like you want to have those conversations with. They're really important conversations to have. 

Sabina Read

I guess I’m going to go back to where we began, and that’s imagining someone who’s seriously considering leaving their relationship. And if I’m in that headspace, I don’t want to speak to politicians. I don’t want to be the voice of reason for everyone around me. I don’t want to change the culture of our country. I want to know that there’s a pathway forward for me and my children. That insures me enough safety to choose to take this risk, because otherwise I’ll stay in the status quo that I’m in. No matter how bad it feels. So I wonder if we can just deep dive that with any other tips, strategies, tools, resources for the person who’s actually in the pot right now. And the fire is hot. 

Dean Cooper

Yeah. I think that one of the things that we can start to do is to implement a safety plan. I think it’s really great to have a plan instead of relying on a gut feeling of the green light at a red light, and there’s going to be a green light and I’m going to make the dash. And realistically, that’s not how leaving a relationship works. Maybe it takes time. It takes planning, it takes consideration. So developing a really comprehensive safety plan is a great way to go about it. Who can I trust to store maybe some additional funds on the side, having funding available for me. Starting to get access to payments that are available. Can I consult my workplace around domestic and family violence leave policies and have that in place. Workplaces go above and beyond awards. So it’s standard in Australia that we have access to 10 days. They can be used to access counselling, to take steps to make childcare arrangements, it can be going to court to file paperwork. We can access those. We have access to flexible work arrangements under that same policy in some workplaces that go above and beyond award as well. So we’ve worked with teams that are, you know, people and culture teams that have vouchers ready to go for hotels and for alternative accommodation for staff to access. If they need to get out today, they have access to supermarket vouchers as well, additional payments where they can access their pay ahead in advance to an account that they nominate. There’s companies that go above and beyond awards, so speak to your team, take those preparatory steps and incorporate that into your safety plan so that when that day comes and that decision that you feel empowered to take that step, to leave, you have an idea of where to go to next, leaving an unsafe relationship. I have had it described to me by someone with lived experiences that it’s stepping into a tunnel and dark cave system. And I’m not sure what each corner has around. So what we can actually do by developing that safety plan and planning out ideas of what it might look like to leave and what supports we need to access, who we need to tell and where we’re going to go, can light some of those beacons along the way. So at least we know when we take this journey, we have it stepped out and planned. We feel a bit more at ease in it with that decision as well. And we lean on that safety plan and you can again develop that yourself to what you know, there’s safety plans you can access online. You can come up with it yourself. You can do it with your trusted peer circle. You could even do it in your workplace. Your people and culture teams will have access to safety plans and supporting staff. Or it might be with an external support service, such as 1800 RESPECT or a refuge service that will help you comprehensively plan having some belongings, having childcare arrangements made, having a safe location that you can go and taking those steps and having them available will make you feel more comfortable to make that decision. Because when you’re in that pot as you described and it’s hot and I want to take that step, knowing what the first six steps look like is really going to help you, before you know, you turn around and you’re at step eight, nine, ten in that process. So having that plan really helps set the scene. 

Sabina Read

Zoe do you have thoughts to add to that and particularly perhaps around being a parent because now I’m in the pot myself. But I’m also trying to hold the little people or teenagers, depending on the age of our children, to help them out of the pot, too. And it’s kind of the oxygen mask, you know, first or second in a situation like that, what can we do as a parent? 

Zoe Hughes

Yeah, I mean, it’s really overwhelming, isn’t it? And I think, firstly, the parents, you’ve done an amazing job keeping yourself and your children safe so far. And I just want people to acknowledge that and be sure that whatever decisions you’ve had have made or whatever decisions you do make have been the best decisions that you can make in that moment. But having a plan is really, really important. We would never recommend someone to leave a domestic, violent relationship without a really good safety plan. And it’s a journey. It’s going to be a journey for you and a journey for your children. And your journeys might look different. And that’s okay, because for you, you might be experiencing anger and sadness and grief and loss. Whereas your child might be experiencing, you know, sadness at the loss of a relationship. And their parents being together. But each experience, each feeling is really valid. Um, and in terms of, um, you know, working with, you know, if you’ve got children in this situation, one of the first things we can do to support them is really create that sense of safety for them. Children who have been impacted by family violence, they often see the world as an unsafe place, and helping them to regain a sense of safety and control really helps them heal from the trauma that they may have experienced. So that only doesn’t mean physical safety, i.e. removing them from the exposure, but also emotional safety as well, and validating their thoughts, feelings and opinions and ensuring that they’re heard and developing routines and stability and predictability. We know that something that children need most in this world to feel safe are those things. So where possible, we can create a little bit of routine or stability in their lives to help them feel safe again and, you know, really help our children find positive ways to cope with their strong feelings. So it is normal for children to have really big feelings. And it is okay for children to have really big feelings. But finding ways that they can work through those emotions and feel supportive and have really good coping strategies will be a really important step. Also, just making time for difficult conversations, being as open as possible, which is developmentally appropriate for the age of your child. 

Sabina Read

Do either of you happen to know of any resources like books for that you can read? I’m thinking about young children now that you might read to a child around building a sense of safety or agency, or what happens when, I mean, there are a lot of books around separation, which is a hard thing to explain to a young child without the violence and the abuse. 

Dean Cooper

Yeah, there’s definitely some available. Um, you know, for example, I know that, uh, Bravehearts, I use those books with my children around body safety and trying to explain the fact that there’s people out there that want to do them harm, and there absolutely is. So. Domestic abuse shelters.org, I believe have some resources available on there. And there’s also a website called Kids of Purple as well, which is actually developed by someone who grew up in experiencing family domestic violence and thought, you know, this is for more teenagers where they thought, you know, a lot of the information I’m looking at doesn’t really speak to me, but how do I actually find the resources that speak to me as a teen and help me make sense of what’s going on in this situation? So it’s language appropriate and there’s resources available there. But if you Google, you know, books to support conversations with children around domestic and family violence, there’s resources available on Amazon as well that you can order if safe to do so. We’d encourage you to do those because, you know, these conversations are hard and sometimes storytelling, we all connect through storytelling, especially children. Those stories make uncomfortable conversations that I have with my children around body safety and boundaries and consent and, you know, their body autonomy and choice are made a lot easier following a story and using a character than it is to sit down and try and explain something logically and reasonably. So I’ve been able to connect through play and story, and feel your way through the story is a great way to do that. So I’d absolutely encourage books to have those conversations and help them make sense of this world that’s really confusing for them. And before we get on to a final, any other final resources? 

Sabina Read

You’ve both mentioned a lot of resources throughout the chat. I wonder if you could speak to the importance and the power of language, language that we use when we’re talking to ourselves, a language when we’re talking to our children, and also how we discuss these topics without being fearful, without stumbling over our words. Have you got any suggestions about particularly even victim Survivor is one topic. Is one term that resonates with me. But help me out here. What language do I need to use in order to help myself and help others? 

Zoe Hughes

We’ve been very good in the past of using victim blaming language, so we really need to, uh, move away from  language such as. Well, why don’t you just leave the relationship, um, you know, etc.. Because sometimes it is actually more unsafe to leave the relationship and use language like, well, why didn’t that person stop using the violence and really pivot to the perpetrator or pivot to the person who is using the violence and really talk about their behaviour and advocate for the behaviour of the victim survivor who has been, you know, everything that they have been doing is to keep themselves safe. Nobody wants to be in a family and domestic violent relationship. No one chooses that when they go into a relationship. So we need to stop this victim blaming language. And in terms of working with, with young children, um, it would just be using developmentally-appropriate language. Sometimes we don’t have the right thing to say, but just listening and feeling heard is better than saying the wrong thing. Sometimes saying nothing at all is better than saying the wrong thing. So you could just say things like, I don’t know what to say right now, but I’m really glad that we’ve had this chat. 

Sabina Read

Yeah. And for you, Dean? 

Dean Cooper

I think language is really important. And I think what we say and what we do really matters, and it has an impact on people speaking to, you know, and walking alongside people that have left relationships and hearing of their experience is that, what people have said and done that around them have had profound impacts? Because if we are engaging in victim blaming language and saying, why don’t you just leave? How many times is she going to tell me about this? She’s got to get out of there. You know, we’ve had this. She can’t keep coming to me and then going back, and we put all these strings and conditions and demands on people and ways they should behave. It actually says quite a lot. So what we actually tell people when we do that and we judge their decisions and we don’t believe them and we don’t support them. People who are experiencing violence aren’t just impacted by their behaviour, they’re actually impacted by the silence of others around them. They’re impacted by the fear of not being believed. They’re impacted by the fear of outrage around them, and why no one’s holding them accountable. And they’re impacted by the fact that people aren’t marching the street demanding change. So what we say and what we do around people who are experiencing violence really matters. One thing I learned about people who are perpetrating violence, and if you have a suspicion that someone in your circle is perpetrating violence,  one thing is a really great tip to listen for, and a big red flag is a belief system that supports violence. So feminist Eva Cox summed up that it’s not how do we stop men using violence? It’s how do we stop them from feeling entitled to do it? And that comes through language where we might hear a “she should”. So usually if I’m talking with someone who’s using violence, I’m working with someone who’s using violence. “If only she should or she should have this, if she just did this and she should, and if she should is a red flag for a belief system that makes them feel entitled to take that next step. 

So let’s slow it down. You know, I heard you say “she should” quite a lot. And I just want to slow that down. And what do you mean by that? And when you say that, what does that actually mean? And what do you expect? 

Because sometimes people who are perpetrating a lot of the times, people that are perpetrating violence portray themselves as a victim and they offend from a victim mentality because they’re actually a victim of what they feel entitled to. So we can really hone in on that language and hold them accountable for that, and make sure that we aren’t victim blaming, that we’re not supporting someone’s attitudes and beliefs to perpetrate violence, that we actually draw a bit of a line in the sand and not just sort of nodding along awkwardly and giving or giving them permission in silence that we say, hey, when you say she should do this. That sounds a little uncomfortable for me. I don’t expect my partner to do that, because people that are using violence will frame it as help. And oftentimes, you know, help is the sunny side of control. But frame it in a way that I was doing this for her best interest, for her safety. You know, I was just she was going crazy. So I pinned her against the wall just to stop her from, you know, doing this or having an impact in that thought process of having to use abuse of violence to help someone, that belongs to abusers alone. That’s not logical – that’s not what safe people do in relationships. We can hear it, call it and identify it and hold people respectfully and gently accountable for it. 

Sabina Read

And also financially, well, I know what’s best, or I’m the one that earns more. So I’m going to take control of that because I care. And I’m being thoughtful for the couple or the family unit. 

Dean Cooper

Really great points. Because oftentimes that’s some of the issues and feedback we’ve had with Red flag campaigns is oftentimes the red flags are really hard to find because I look at that list. And does he control all the money? Well, yeah, he always has. He’s earned more. And he said that he’s better with managing money and he invested in things I don’t understand or I’m not aware of. And or he doesn’t show me. But you know, he said that he does it because it’s going to financially set us up for the future or, you know, these big decisions on what suburb we go in that we’re going to buy into or invest in. He handles all that because he said that he knows it best and that he’s across it and that, you know, I’m putting my trust in him. And oftentimes it’s going well. Is that a red flag? Is it not? So we like to think that, like we said, if you are withholding information from loved ones and people that have your best interest, it’s a good sign that your gut is telling you that something’s not right. You’re withholding that information because it is uncomfortable and it feels unsafe. So the red flags are hard to find. But listen to yourself because you deserve respect and safety and anything else other than that you have a right to question. 

Sabina Read

It’s not easy when someone says to you: “but he’s a good man. You know, I think maybe you’re overcooking this.And you’ve shared such a life together and, you know, it’s not so bad.”

Dean Cooper

Agreed. And that’s one of the frustrating things. And I think, and I think Zoe would agree, is that there’s this idea that. But he’s such a good dad though. Woman abuse is child abuse. Children don’t just witness family violence. They experience it. It’s encoded in their nervous system. They might not see it or they might be in another room or anything. But they’re these perfect emotional little barometers that pick up on that, so they absolutely experience it. So this idea that they can somehow be a good, you know, parent whilst perpetrating abuse in a relationship is really flawed. So, it’s important that we do challenge those notions. And it might be our knee jerk reaction to do it. And I just want to say, if anyone that has said that, if they’re reflecting on a time they supported someone, they said, oh, but I did say he was a good dad though I did say this, and I did say that maybe he didn’t mean it in that way. And I think it’s important to acknowledge that we do that not because we’re bad people and we want to harm them. Those are unintended consequences of those responses. But these are uncomfortable conversations. So we want to move someone through their discomfort. When someone comes to us and says, I feel unsafe and I feel really unsure about this interaction or what just happened here, our ke your reaction is, oh, I don’t think it is what you think it was. Or maybe it wasn’t that. Or maybe they just had a big day at work or whatever it is because you want to move them through the discomfort. We don’t want to see them sitting in that, and we want to move ourselves through the discomfort. But what we actually tell them is, I don’t believe you, are minimising the impact of it. And so what we want to do is just unequivocally believe we don’t judge and we don’t tell people what to do. And if we follow those steps, we can really show up and be the right support and feel comfortable to hold space with people. Sit in the discomfort. You can support someone through domestic and family violence with really just two things: Tell me more. If they feel safe and comfortable to do so, they will. That sounds like it’s been really hard. How do you think that’s been affecting you? And then go with that. They feel safe and comfortable to tell you they will, and when they tell you how it’s affected them. That sounds really hard. Tell me more. Tell me more about something going on. And if they feel safe and comfortable around you, they will. So you don’t have to be a clinical psychologist. You don’t have to have the graduate certificate to show up and support someone. You don’t have to have 10 years refuge experience to support a friend. We can show up and hold space and allow people to feel that. And with just two simple lines like that. We can apply a lot of first aid to someone’s hurt and validate their experience. And that validation might just be the jumping board to making that decision to leave, that what I’m experiencing is not okay, and I deserve better, and I deserve safety and respect, and I feel empowered enough to leave. 

Sabina Read

You both work with people. Lived experience. Many, many lived experience. Stories that you walk along and have walked alongside over the decades. What’s one final thing you want to leave for people who are listening, as we said, pre, during or post separation that they can take with them? 

Zoe Hughes

Oh, I have a heart full of hope and I hope I can share that heart full of hope with people out there who are experiencing this because it is a journey. It’s absolutely a journey. But with time, support and self-compassion, you can build a life free from fear and full of hope. And that would be my message to all of the people out there that may be experiencing family and domestic violence. 

 

Sabina Read

These are powerful words. And for you, Dean? 

Dean Cooper

Yeah, I guess my parting words for listeners that may be living it or have heard this conversation and go, wow, that’s me. I think, I’m in an unsafe relationship or I’ve just separated. I’m coming here for some advice, you know, around separating and navigating this journey. Um. I’m sorry. This is your experience, and I’m sorry this has happened to you. You deserve safety. You deserve respect. You deserve autonomy. And how you’re feeling is completely valid. And if you are out here seeking the right supports, you’re taking the right steps, such as accessing podcasts like these and other resources. And for anyone who is listening to this and thinking, maybe I’m the problem in my relationship and I’m using violence, I think I might be making my family feel unsafe. Really re-evaluate how you show up in the home. Re-evaluate that because if maybe you came from a family where that was normal and everything around you doesn’t have to be like that. It doesn’t have to continue evaluate how you’re showing up and ask yourself, am I showing up as the safe parent that I want to be? Am I someone that you know my kids want to be around? Does my partner feel safe around me and supported and confide in me? And if she’s not doing these things, how do I do it differently and right or wrong is irrelevant. If you’re driving down the highway in a mini Cooper and a truck’s coming the other way, you can scream, I’m right, I’m right, I’m right, I’m right the whole way until there’s a big prang. Um, but unfortunately, that mess in the middle is the kids. It’s the family court. It’s the systems that become involved when we don’t decide to make change. And right or wrong is irrelevant. It’s about safety and it’s about your children. So if you are using violence, get help, hold yourself accountable because you deserve better as well. You’re not where you want to be. You don’t feel how you want to feel in a relationship, and it doesn’t have to be that way. And it can change, and you can change and people can change. 

Sabina Read

Hope and more hope, hope and guidance with action. I think that’s the summary. Dean and Zoe, thank you both so much for your time. We will list a lot of the resources that you shared throughout this chat in our show notes, and we’re very grateful for the time and also the work that you do walking along so many lives. Thank you again. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

At the Separation Guide, we measure our success by our ability to keep you out of conflict and get through separation in the best possible way, protecting your long term health, wealth, and happiness. The Separation Guide Plan provides you with step by step guidance on all stages of separation and aims to empower you with the knowledge, expert resources, skills and strategies to take each step with confidence. Every specialist attached to our platform is measured on their ability to do the same, and everyone signs an ethical charter showing we all believe that court should be seen as a last resort. If you’d like to learn more about your options in preparation, or you want to be put in touch with professionals to guide you through, please go to the Separation Guide and complete our three minute interactive Q&A, or check out our other podcasts and blogs. If you found the information today useful, please subscribe, share and leave us a review. It’s a great way to help our podcasts reach others. 

Going through separation in the spirit of reconciliation, the Separation Guide acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respects to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today. 

To mark Family and Domestic Violence Awareness Month in May, The Separation Guide has launched “I Care About Conflict”. This national initiative provides victim survivors of family abuse who are also negotiating separation and divorce, with free access to vital resources and advice from professionals.

“I Care About Conflict” calls on legal professionals, tech innovators, employers, and insurers to contribute to sponsoring victims through the purchase of SepGuide™ Plans, which can change the lives of victims who may not otherwise have access to the professional help needed to leave an abusive situation without conflict. Visit www.icareaboutconflict.com to learn more.