Listen: How to know when it’s really over

Sabina Read
No one gets married with a plan to separate from their spouse, yet close to 50% of marriages end in divorce. Most people going through separation desire a respectful and fair process for themselves, the children and their partner. But knowing how to create this kind of outcome means finding the right support at the optimum time for your needs. Welcome to the Separation Guide podcast. I’m your host, Sabina Reid. I’m a psychologist, media commentator, podcast host, and live sherpa, and my passion is to create moments of connection, hope, freedom, and joy while normalizing the whole gamut of emotions that exist in all of us. What I know for sure is that we all share more in common than we do differences, and when we find common ground with others, it helps us to navigate even the toughest of days. Together with our online platform, The Separation Guide. This podcast is your go to resource for all things separation and divorce. Our aim is to walk alongside you to help remove some of the cost, conflict and confusion for people navigating the end of a marriage.

Today on the podcast we are joined by Bev Berelowitz: A relationship breakup and divorce coach from Flourish Divorce Coaching. Bev is an accredited divorce coach with over 30 years of experience in social work, in both the public and private sectors. She specialises in helping men and women navigate the challenges that arise at any stage of separation. Having experienced her own divorce over 17 years ago, Bev was inspired to support others on their separation journeys. She understands the importance of sharing one’s unique story and being heard while dealing with the complexities of a breakup. Now, many people have thought about what it would be like to leave a marriage, but the confusion, cost, and fear can leave us paralyzed. We wonder whether the gains will offset the losses. We fear the unknown. We worry about the opinions of others, and we’re often concerned about the impact of our choices on people we love, including children, family, and friends. It’s understandably commonplace to question whether we have overturned all stones, needed to know whether leaving is a reactionary step, or actually the next best course of action to truly honor our needs. If you’ve thought about separating, but continue to quash your intuition, or if you’ve arrived at a stage of knowing but you don’t know where to begin, then this conversation is for you. And if you know others who are contemplating separation but feeling stuck, then please share this important conversation with them too. Here’s my chat with Bev. They have a separation and divorce coach. And you’ve also got your own experience of separation and divorce. Can you tell us a bit about when and why you realized it was time to leave the marriage? And also, what do you know now that you wish you’d known then?

Bev Berelowitz
For me, Sabina, I just knew it was something that was a gut feel and I just knew I had to go and my marriage had done its time and it was no longer healthy for me. And I tried everything that I could to. We had been for couple counselling, I tried different styles of communication, and I just no longer felt emotionally safe in my marriage and I didn’t feel respected anymore. I felt that it was time for me to move on, and I felt a bit dismissed in my marriage. And the connection had gone, and that’s when I knew it was time to move forward. You know, often people stay out of guilt, out of fear, out of just probably procrastination or not knowing what to do. I was ready and I knew and I just trusted that gut feel. And I did what I needed to to get out.

Sabina Read
Thank you for sharing some of your own experience, because I think it helps ground the work that you obviously do with so many clients. Now, for us to understand some of your experience in some relationships, there’s still the possibility of change and growth and transformation. What do you think the signs are of a relationship that can be repaired, as opposed to one that is perhaps healthier to leave?

Bev Berelowitz
Well, obviously, if there is any abuse, whether it’s physical or emotional, often that’s beyond repair. But if people are still respectful of each other, want to be together and the values are aligned, I think that’s often a really good indication that the marriage can be worked upon. I think as soon as a person starts to feel diminished and they lose their sense of self, they lose their self-respect. They do lose their self-esteem. I think that’s often when the signs and the red flags are there, that the marriage probably is going to be harder to salvage.

Sabina Read
That makes a lot of sense. And yet we’re all influenced by conscious and unconscious Conscious beliefs. Those that came before us in our family of origin, societal expectations and norms. And I wonder what your thoughts are and how we can balance the fine line of being true to ourselves. Tuning into our gut and your intuition, which is something you’ve mentioned you did while also not being overly influenced by the expectations of others, whether that’s family or, as I said, societal expectations. How do we balance those two forces?

Bev Berelowitz
Obviously, our cultural background has a hugely strong influence on the way we do life. There is often a very strong social expectation, almost glorifying staying in relationships. And society does fantasize about staying in relationships. And I do believe that to do what the norm is to go against the norm. It’s really hard. It’s important to reframe it, to reframe the decision. When you do, you find yourself in that situation because leaving an unhealthy marriage or marriage that no longer serves and takes a lot of courage. If we could see it as an act of courage and not failure. You know, we’re really doing it for ourselves. Um. I always say that this is not a dress rehearsal. You know, if we are given an opportunity to try again and find happiness and empower ourselves in a different way, regardless of what we are brought up to believe, it’s really important to do what we need to do as human beings. And everyone is different. There’s no right and wrong, but there is a strong influence of what society dictates as normal.

Sabina Read
You know, many of us are aware of relationship counselling and couples counselling, but divorce coaching is perhaps a newer process. So I’m curious about how you work with clients, and particularly how you navigate the fear of making a decision that they may worry they will regret.

Bev Berelowitz
I think as a coach, the idea of coaching is to facilitate your client extracting the information that comes through. So you aren’t really making any decisions for them. You just offer options. I think that’s probably the best way of putting it. and people obviously are encouraged to just see what resonates with them and to trust their gut when they do make their decision. Most people know what is right for them, and they just have never really had an opportunity. Or it’s never been a facilitator conversation where the options are laid out on the table and they can say that resonates, that feels right, that doesn’t. And often if something doesn’t, you keep digging deeper because it could be a fear blocking them. So as a coach, you train to to work with what’s given and to try and go a bit deeper to ensure that the, you know, they get to the bottom of what’s stopping them from making whatever decision they need to, whether it’s to go or stay.

Sabina Read
Do you ever work with couples in this process, or is it predominantly with individuals?

Bev Berelowitz
I work predominantly with individuals. I have worked with couples before, but that isn’t my area of expertise, so I generally refer to a couple counsellor. I do have some in my little toolbox who I generally tend to use, and I always say to my clients, I would never refer you to anyone who I personally wouldn’t use myself. So yes, leaving a relationship isn’t really black and white.

Sabina Read
And you’ve made reference to fear. And fear has its place when we’re embarking on the unknown, uncertainty, change and what a future looks like that is different to the future we initially envisaged for ourselves. How often do you hear people continuing to express a feeling of love for the partner that they want to leave?

Bev Berelowitz
Not often. They definitely are situations where people just feel that they’ve fallen out of love with their partner. But there isn’t really that sense of I love their partner so much. I don’t want to go and they and they choose to leave. So usually whatever the kind of love is, it’s dwindled. It’s no longer there. And that’s what makes the person choose to leave unless they’ve been in an unsafe relationship emotionally or physically, then it is black and white. You do have people choosing to leave relationships because they feel that they’re no longer bringing the best out of each other. And you know that’s quite a kind, gentle, mature way of choosing to accept a relationship because you do love each other to a point where you want each other to love the best version of your life. And when you recognize that it can’t be done with each other, you know that is really a magnificent way of ending a relationship. But it’s very rare, and it doesn’t happen that often. Usually by the time people come for support, they’re struggling. They’re stuck. They need help because they’re not quite sure which direction to go in. So usually people who are clear and they’ve come to that arrangement mutually don’t genuinely tend to go for the support because they’ve already made up their mind and maybe had a discussion, a transparent and honest discussion with each other.

Sabina Read
I want to play devil’s advocate here. We know that over the course of a relationship, the so-called honeymoon period tends to ebb and flow. Passion, desire, sexual connection can all shift in the course of a long-term relationship. So how do you think we know the difference between those natural ebbs and flow of decades with one person, as opposed to recognizing that we’re not going to bring out the best in each other, to use your phrase.

Bev Berelowitz
I think it’s just an internal knowledge. It’s when the same issues are repeatedly coming up. For example, when a partner feels like they’re walking on eggshells around the other, when a partner feels that being away from each other is actually more peaceful and manageable than being in each other’s company. They are definite signs that are elicited to make a person know whether the relationship is worth staying in and saving, or whether it’s time to get out because it is a life decision. It’s a really hard decision and it’s life changing. So I do say to my clients, first prize is to stay together if you can. Obviously, when you get to a point where you just realize that you can’t do life together anymore and you will be happier and you start fantasizing about a life without each other, you know, that’s a very clear sign that it’s time to possibly look at the alternative.

Sabina Read
What else would be on that list? Because you’ve just mentioned three really potent indicators that the relationship may have run its course. What else would you add to that list?

Bev Berelowitz
You know, sometimes it’s subtle, but sometimes it’s really clear cut. I think when trust is being broken, that’s quite a clear indicator when you’ve tried to work on the relationship and you just can’t win. When a person’s trust has been broken and they make promises and those promises are not fulfilled. So you don’t even trust the new promises. I think when people grow apart, when the values are no longer aligned, and you just feel that who is this person that you were? They’re not the person that you thought you had married or who you had married or what have they become? And you just don’t feel comfortable. There’s a discomfort which no longer sits well and one doesn’t want to tolerate their discomfort, but it’s when things are no longer worth tolerating and the resentment just sets in too deep. You know when you’ve had enough and you just can’t do this anymore, it’s becomes too exhausting.

Sabina Read
That’s quite a long, detailed list. You mentioned something around the other person’s “not who I married”. “The other person’s not who I wanted”. But I wonder how often it’s about how much I’ve changed. As the partner. As the initiator?

Bev Berelowitz
That’s true. Absolutely. Something quite commonly witnessed in my practice is when women start to come into their own, and they feel empowered and they feel that, you know, they’re not being fulfilled in the relationship in a way that they’re wanting to be, or they can no longer be the mother figure, the sexualized mother figure, or can no longer day be their partner. Those are the words they use and they express. And, you know, it’s causing an anxiety where their body actually feels it, and constant ongoing trauma. You know, there’s a book that’s been written called The Body Keeps the Score and it starts to affect one physically. And when our body holds that trauma and that physicality, it starts leading to other issues like insomnia or incredible tension, anxiety, depression. And those are all signs that this relationship has probably run its course and is no longer healthy.

Sabina Read
Famously, Chris Martin and Gwyneth Paltrow were part of coining the phrase “conscious uncoupling”. What do you think a true conscious uncoupling would look like? What steps might it entail?

Bev Berelowitz
For me personally, it’s all about communication. It’s about transparency. It’s about expressing your needs. It’s about consideration. Thinking about each other. Thinking about yourself as well as if there are children involved. And it’s appropriate to put those children first. It’s about being conscious in your decision making because every decision made has a consequence. And when we are conscious about what we do, we are also conscious about the potential risks and the positives which can come out of a conscious decision or conscious action. I wonder how much the developmental overlay plays into this.

Sabina Read
You talked about seeing a lot in your practice, women coming into their own sense of empowerment or change. And I know it’s very common at milestones like, retirement, menopause, empty nesting. These are what I would put under the banner of the developmental lens, because they’re happening at certain points in the lifespan. How do we know when a relationship is rubbing up against itself because of these external developmental milestones, as opposed to what is actually happening between the couple? Or does it matter?

Bev Berelowitz
I think it does matter because I think having personal insights and doing the work is really important. And if there are factors which have contributed to the breakdown of a relationship, if these are not addressed, they will just keep repeating themselves. So attachment styles, one’s own parenting, one’s own past traumas, one’s upbringing, one’s societal expectations, and one’s previous traumas and grief all play a role in how we act out in our relationships and what we bring to the table. And I think when these are not resolved, they’re absolutely to play a huge part. And it does matter, because before anyone moves forward and starts considering another relationship, it’s really important to do your healing and to try and resolve some of those wounds, which often stem from childhood.

Sabina Read
Nearly always, I would say, and so, so often we choose, perhaps unconsciously, a partner to work through those traumas. That partner is almost the best person on the planet to trigger those parts of us that are unhealed or that we’re working through ourselves. And again, how do we make sense of how much of this is the wounds that I’m carrying and the processes that I’m working through, as opposed to what’s coming up for me in the presence of my partner?

Bev Berelowitz
That’s a great question. And if I had to rewrite my script and I think everyone’s script, I would say, before you enter a relationship, a long-term serious relationship. Make sure you do the work on yourself and go for couple counselling. Go almost for premarital counselling to make sure that you’re on the same page, that your values align, that you have parenting values. You know that you want to raise your children in the same way, because I think it’s often their difference. And as you say, often we are attracted to probably someone who’s going to be our teacher rather than someone we’re going to do that well with and parent. Well, that would be my wish and hope for everyone to just do the work before they’re into that long-term relationship.

Sabina Read
And perhaps then the question becomes, are we better off without, because all relationships, our growth fail in some way? Again, societal norms, at least in our culture, suggest that teacher relationship, that learning, that growth relationship needs to happen forever. I wonder if it’s possible that we might do better sometimes with multiple teachers, if we follow that train of thought?

Bev Berelowitz
That is a perspective, absolutely. And I think we do have multiple teachers from our friendships, and we can never get everything from one person. So I think, you know, we also need to be clear of our expectations of that relationship. What are we expecting? Are the aks unrealistic? You know, knowing that friendships can give us what we need and educationalists and our gym coach can give us what we need on a level. You know, our yoga teacher can help us with spirituality. So just knowing, you know, they say it takes a village to raise a child. And I think it takes a lot of teachers to have a good life.

Sabina Read
Including four legs as well. I would add to the list.

Bev Berelowitz
Yes, that unconditional love. Yeah.

Sabina Read
Yeah. And intimacy and touch that we get from animals. And I think it’s often overlooked. But I’ve heard so many people over the years talk about how meaningful their pet is in their life.

Bev Berelowitz
Absolutely. And I suppose it teaches people to give as well and share and love as well as receive.

Sabina Read
Yeah, beautiful. What do you think are some of the biggest mistakes people make when separating? So let’s sort of fast forward a little bit here, now that I’m thinking I’m getting closer to being clear that this is the step I want to take. What are some of the biggest mistakes that I might want to be aware of?

Bev Berelowitz
I think rushing into anything is not helpful. So I think knowing your why, knowing why you are doing this and knowing your expectation from doing this. What does it look like? What is the landscape going to look like if you do make that decision? Because we need to look at the whole of life. So we need to look at the impact that it will have on our lives, on our relationships, on our children, on our employment, on our housing. And we need to consider our whole world and not rush into anything. So I would say get the advice you need. Draw on the experts: Speak to someone legal, someone financial. Speak to a mortgage broker or a mediator. Speak to a counsellor, psychologist or coach. You know, make sure that you’ve got your breakup support team, that you are being supported in every way that you need to be. Make sure that the people that you talk to, you trust. Often people just have a need to talk and get it out, especially if they are angry. It’s not always helpful. Sometimes it falls on the wrong ears, and you don’t know what people are bringing to their conversation from their own stuff and their own experiences. So just make sure you speak to a trusted person and know what you need to do. Don’t rush into any decision making.

Sabina Read
I’m going to give a shout out to The Separation Guide here, because that’s really a lot of what The Separation Guide is and does offer, I believe, this triaging of this group, this support group that it’s often so hard to know who you even need support from apart from, as you say, perhaps a close, trusted friend, which is a good place to start. But also, as you say, they will share through their own lens of experience as opposed to impartial expertise. And one person can’t have expertise in the financial and legal and parenting and relational and real estate all of these lenses put together. So I like that this idea of getting together a support group with their different inputs.

You also mentioned something around reframing the idea of divorce. And again, so many people believe that longevity is a metric of relational success. And so the end of it must spell failure. How else can you help people reframe their idea that the end of a relationship is not failure, but perhaps a transition, and maybe a welcome one at that?

Bev Berelowitz
I think the most important thing, Sabina, is to own your story. Own what you’ve done and be proud. Be proud to say, you know what? I’ve chosen myself over and above this toxic relationship. Or I’m choosing freedom. I’m choosing to give myself another chance to be happy. So, you know, own that. See it as a form of growth. A form of comfort, not as a failure. Create that circle of support around you. So surround yourself with people who are going to enhance your life, who are going to understand what you’re going through and support your decision, not criticize you. People who will actually understand why you’re doing what you’re doing. Also, I think a really important thing is to have self-compassion. We need to do what serves us, and we need to listen to what we need, because at the end of the day, we do the best we can with the tools that we have, with the strength we have with our levels of exhaustion. And, you know if you’re parenting it can be so tiring and often one doesn’t even think straight at the time. What am I doing? And then the fear creeps in. I think it’s just important to know that we all do the best we can with what we have at that moment and at every moment in time. Acknowledging that it takes courage to say “no more: I’m out of here”. And we can grieve at the same time as we can be courageous and brave and just knowing that grieving and feeding that emotional pain is a very normal part of the separation process. And it is a loss. It’s the loss of the dreams. It’s the loss of the future that we envisaged. So there’s definitely a whole grieving process that goes with it. And just giving yourself permission to go through that grieving process is vital. We’ve got to go through it to get to the other side.

Sabina Read
And of course, as we know, grief comes in waves. So yeah, if some of those grieving feelings arise, I guess for some people it may be easy to think, well, if I’m feeling this deep sense of loss, maybe I’m making a decision that’s not right for me at this time, as opposed to just feeling the wave of grief and letting it roll over them until the next emotion comes because they they continue to come and go. We know all emotions do that. You’re talking there about self-compassion, about putting your own needs on the table. And yet. What do we do when we feel like perhaps my needs and my children’s needs are at odds with one another?

Bev Berelowitz
So there’s often that conflict of what we need to do in terms of whether we prioritize our needs or our battles, because most mothers or parents put themselves first. However, I always remind people of their story: Mothers, put your own oxygen mask on first. We can’t be good parents if our tank is empty. So it’s really important to fill ourselves first. What I mean by that is to maintain the routines. Keep exercising if you can, and make sure you have a regular massage, because often with the body holding the tension. And I say to people, it wants to totally freeze up and they say, of course, so we need to release it. I offer people skills and techniques and some strategies to somatic strategies to get rid of some of that anxiety that the body holds on to. But yeah, I think it’s just about being clear and really making sure that you do find time out. You do find time to look after yourself and do those things that you know and make you feel good. Whatever that is, we are all different and we get out inspiration from different sources. But it’s the healthy pleasures that we need to focus on because it’s quite easy to say, oh, I’m just going to have a bottle of wine tonight and I won’t have to think about it. So we have to be aware that there are healthy, healthy pleasures and there are those that don’t serve us. So it’s about building a whole list of what we do to support us during this time, rather than add to the stress and the challenge and the negativity.

Sabina Read
It’s wise, wise advice. Let’s fast forward to the separation process. How can I rebuild my post separation identity? I’m used to living on Noah’s Ark, where everyone’s in a couple and we go to dinners together because we’re a couple and they’re a couple, and we’re part of a family unit because that’s what we signed up for. And now our post separation identity looks very different. Our living conditions or our living scenario looks different, our socializing looks different. How can we start to reframe this new post separation identity?

Bev Berelowitz
That is a brilliant question because that is so real. It is something people often struggle with, and I think the most important thing is to actually go back to before you were in a relationship: What were the things that you were passionate about? Revisit the things that you enjoy doing. What were your hobbies? Who were the people you used to hang out with and what excited you? Trying to revisit those. Or maybe think about one of the things you always wanted to do in your marriage, but you couldn’t for whatever reason. Whether your partner restricted you or finances restricted you, or whatever the reasons were. If you are sharing the children, the days that you don’t have the kids, see that as an opportunity for you to actually do all those lovely things that you’ve always wanted to do. The pottery class, the art class, the Zumba class, whatever. Whatever your interests or passions are. Think outside of now and think about beforehand and think about what you’d want to do, what you’re excited about doing. What the separated life can offer you and start rebuilding a life for yourself. Step by step, it’s a slow process. I see it as like a little bit of a wall being built like little bricks. We layer them and we can rearrange them the way we want to. It doesn’t have to be in a certain pattern, but we actually have an opportunity to recreate. And it’s about prioritizing ourselves, redefining ourselves with new routines, with new hobbies, with new passions, things that may have been lost due to the relationship.

I think an important thing is to really have boundaries, especially when it comes to our ex-partners. And make sure that you are very clear on what is okay and what isn’t okay, what’s acceptable to you and with new partners – know what you’re not prepared to tolerate in a new relationship. And I think that’s a really important one moving forward. Because when you’re clear on what you don’t want, the red flags will be high and bright and shine. But stay gentle. Be kind to yourself. It’s like being reborn in a way at a mature age. And be grateful. Be grateful that you have this opportunity because, you know, one of the things that negates negative feelings is gratitude. So if we can acknowledge the things we’re grateful for, our brain actually rewires and our neural pathways start heading towards a much more positive way of being in the world. And we don’t get stuck in the negativity of it. We actually can start to see the positives that come out of a separation. So be grateful. Have a little gratitude. Journal. Start journaling. Some people have never journaled. I encourage that kind of journaling or that kind of self-reflection so that we can continue to learn and grow and find new things about ourselves which we never knew were there, that were dormant for many years. Music is another beautiful one. Music feeds the soul.

Sabina Read
Do things that sing your song and be present with self is what I’m hearing you say. Come back to really tune into yourself. It’s new opportunities to explore. Instead of drowning in guilt and sorrow and blame, which probably don’t move us closer to where we want to go. And talking about the future. Do you have any insights on finding love again? Now, some people will say, oh, I never want to remarry or I don’t even want a long-term partner. Others will be looking for love very quickly. Some will welcome a solo life, perhaps. You know, there’s so many ways to skin the cat here. Do you have any any insights around next steps in the relational journey, whatever that might look like, depending on one’s desires.

Bev Berelowitz
I can speak for myself. When I got divorced, I was never going to be in another relationship again. I was the eternal, independent solo woman. Anyway, I decided that this was my time to heal and I did a lot of work on myself. And four years later, I met the most lovely man and we’ve been together for about 14 years now, just going on 14 years and in a beautiful relationship. So I think it’s quite common to have these fixed, defined ideas initially. But be gentle on yourself again. Things change. The landscape always changes. Nothing stays the same. When I got divorced, I had very young kids. My kids are now graduated and then full-time jobs and relationships. You know, things don’t stay the same. It’s about just playing around with it. Be a little bit fluid. Be curious. Be curious about the possibility. There are so many ways now to try and meet people which, you know, are never entertained. And to me, feel a little bit scary going online dating groups. That’s not anything I did. But there are people out there who do find relationships in that way. I’m a bit cautious of it, and I tell people to be cautious, but I think the secret is do the work first. Heal, you know, recognize what may have broken down in the marriage and why. That way, you’re more inclined to accept someone who’s more aligned with you and your values, and particularly with your who’s more aligned with you and your values now because you’re different. After however long.

Sabina Read
How long were you married?

Bev Berelowitz
We were together for about 13 years. We were married for about 10 years. Yeah.

Sabina Read
So you’re not that same person that you were then?

Bev Berelowitz
No. No. Yeah. I’m the same person, but I think I’m just much more in a good way.

Sabina Read
I can hear that. So just before we wrap up, what’s a question you wish that everyone would ask? Perhaps themselves is the most important question here. What’s the most important question I can ask me if I’m exploring separation?

Bev Berelowitz
I think a really important question is to ask yourself why? Why are you separating? And to understand and to maybe say, if I do separate what will my life look like in five years time, and if I don’t separate, what will my life look like in five years time? And I think it’s really just getting clear on what is important to us and knowing why we’re doing what we’re doing, and then reaching out and getting the support you need. And I can only agree with you. I think The Separation Guide is unbelievable in terms of just knowing which way to go. You know, some people even come and see me and I say, before we move forward, I would recommend you go into The Separation Guide and just, you know, be triaged because sometimes people just don’t even know which direction to go in.

Sabina Read
I was going to ask my final question, and it’s kind of similar to what you’ve just shared. But if you could give one piece of advice so people are listening, let’s imagine to our listeners who are thinking, I think this is me. This is really spoken to me. And a lot of what Bev’s shared resonates. What can I do next? What’s the one piece of advice you’ve got for next steps?

Bev Berelowitz
I think be clear. Get clarity around your relationship, whether you want to go or you want to stay. And I think try everything in your power to make it work, because that way you will have no regret. So if you know that you’ve done everything you can to make the marriage or the relationship work, when you do leave, you will leave with less regret and you will leave knowing that you’ve tried everything you can.

Sabina Read
Thank you so much. It’s been. You’ve got a lovely way about you. It’s. It’s gentle, it’s clear, it’s compassionate, but it’s also hopeful. That’s what I’ve taken from our conversation. I hope our listeners do the same. We’re really grateful for your time.

At the Separation Guide. We measure our success by our ability to keep you out of conflict and get through separation in the best possible way. Protecting your long-term health, wealth, and happiness. The SepGuide Plan provides you with step-by-step guidance on all stages of separation and aims to empower you with the knowledge, expert resources, skills and strategies to take each step with confidence. Every specialist attached to our platform is measured on their ability to do the same, and everyone signs an ethical charter showing we all believe that court should be seen as a last resort.

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