Listen: Separation Stories – how to navigate social support

Sabina Read
No one gets married with a plan to separate from their spouse, yet close to 50% of marriages end in divorce. Most people going through separation desire a respectful and fair process for themselves, the children and their partner. But knowing how to create this kind of outcome means finding the right support at the optimum time for your needs. Welcome to the Separation Guide podcast. I’m your host, Sabina Read. I’m a psychologist, media commentator, podcast host, and live sherpa, and my passion is to create moments of connection, hope, freedom, and joy while normalizing the whole gamut of emotions that exist in all of us. What I know for sure is that we all share more in common than we do differences, and when we find common ground with others, it helps us to navigate even the toughest of days. Together with our online platform, The Guide, this podcast is your go to resource for all things separation and divorce. Our aim is to walk alongside you to help remove some of the cost, conflict and confusion for people navigating the end of a marriage. We often expect and observe separated couples to be filled with resentment, hurt, and anger, and to therefore struggle to communicate with respect and ease following divorce. Many couples say that they will put the needs of their children first, and then their own pain gets in the way. But this is not the case for the two inspiring guests on this episode. Jane and Matt Martino were married for 12 years and have now been separated for eight. In the process of separating and in the aftermath of divorce, they both repeatedly committed to genuinely putting their three boys first. Even when it wasn’t easy, they found ways to show themselves, their boys and the community around them. That breaking up well is possible, and that regardless of their separation, they are still very much a family. Janey and Matt have holidayed together, maintained regular family dinners and over time have even warmly welcomed well, multiple new partners into the family. In this episode, they share how they shaped their separation into what they wanted, including the tangible steps that they took to communicate to family and friends what they needed most from people in their inner circle to help their family of five thrive. This is one of my all time favourite pod conversations, highlighting hope, joy, growth, and respect after divorce. Even with a dash of humor thrown in the mix. If you or someone you know anticipates or perhaps is currently experiencing fractious dynamics or a lack of social support during separation, then this episode is a must. Together, Janey and Matt bring honesty, lightness and love, showing us that when we consciously choose the well-being of the children and our ex by showing up with patience and respect, the family unit can evolve in powerful and positive ways, which ultimately benefits everyone involved. Here’s my chat with Janey and Matt. 

Janey and Matt, welcome to the Separation Guide podcast. You were both married for 12 years. You’ve been separated for eight years. In your own words, can you share a little bit about how you arrived at separating? 

Matt Martino
You go… 

Jane Martino
Oh thank you. I would say it was a winding journey of drifting away from each other in terms of arriving at the final decision. I feel like that was, that happened quite quickly, and through a lot of distress. So I would say there was a longer period where we were drifting in and out and tried to work through various things, and then it felt a bit like a storm – it felt like a flurry of activity, to be honest, when the actual decision to separate happened. I had been overseas, came home. We were both very distressed, like I was really distressed over there. Matt was really distressed back here. So I think being physically apart while also having some fairly intense discussions while I was overseas with work. And I’d been working so much, I was working in a startup and it was untenable the amount I was working, so I wasn’t. I think I was using that also to bury myself in it and hide away from it, to be really honest. Yeah, from my perspective, I felt like we drifted apart. I started to live a more independent life. I think we just had independent things we were doing and that exacerbated everything. And so when we tried to come back together, it just felt  hard. 

Matt
Yeah. And I think our personalities were such that we do things quickly. Like I always remember, we were engaged in eight months, married in 14, three kids in three years straight after. So it was pretty typical for us to do things quickly. And I think the break was as quick. And I know at the time I was really pushing for a decision, and I think Jane was probably looking for time. And those two things just didn’t meet. You’ve got someone who’s totally insecure saying, I need some security in this and assurance, and you’ve got someone else saying, I can’t give you that, and I need time. And I think that was probably the killer. Like the clashing of those two needs at that, as Jane said, at that crisis moment, is probably what tipped it over. But it’s really difficult to look back after eight years because it’s – this is the normal now. So revisiting it or trying to analyze why it doesn’t really benefit or make any sort of logical route – we are where we are now. 

Jane
Yeah, I think I, I must say though, I look back on it and I was a terrible communicator at that time. Like, as I said, I was working and using that as a distraction, which is now, ironically, what I help my coaching clients not do because I wasn’t sure how I was feeling. I couldn’t express it. I didn’t take the time like, that is the time when you should be taking the time, stopping working and work out how you’re feeling. So as Matt said, it was just the two ways of doing something at that time that was so at odds with one another. And I think we’ve both collected those parts of ourselves and mended a lot of those parts, which I know is not a benefit to that particular moment. But I think we’ve both benefited from the growth in those areas, because I can honestly say I probably never said it to you, but I was that was a poor way to show up, you know, and not be willing to put the time into exploring that and being able to provide an answer, although I was clear about needing time, but I then wasn’t taking time, I guess, is what I’m saying. 

Sabina
So it’s messy. That’s the summary. And I agree with you, Matt. It’s not about going back. I guess it’s giving a bit of context for our listeners, a little bit of a snapshot, and it’s simplistic, but a snapshot into the journey of how you arrived at deciding the relationship was over. What was the hardest part about that time? And I know it is eight years ago, but just take yourselves back. What was the hardest part?

Matt
Telling the boys.

Jane
100%. And weighing up all of the. Because there was nothing. And maybe this was where your question was leading, there was nothing horribly wrong. It just was such a separateness that we were feeling, as Matt said, because it did happen quite rapidly. In the end, it was a shock to the boys and people around us, so that the reverberation of it, I think, was the hardest thing and everyone else’s emotion on top of our own. 

Matt
But looking back at that, I think that’s almost the best way to do it, because before it gets rotten and before it becomes toxic, you can sort of, reacting quickly, and I know there’ll be people who say, oh, you didn’t work hard enough, or you didn’t give it enough of a chance or you didn’t try. But I think when you know that something’s broken, it’s okay. And I think that’s probably what I’ve learnt from it. It’s okay that it didn’t continue. I wasn’t going to say fail, but it’s okay that it didn’t. And you can see how if you go at six months, a year, it just becomes resentful. And that toxicity which you then still have to tell the kids, but they’re also damaged by that period as well. And I don’t think that benefits anyone. But that’s how it worked for us. I mean, everything’s everyone’s individual and different and whether, you know, I mean, you know, we tried therapy and counselling and it wasn’t that we just threw it in. But I think we both knew then that we were probably looking at a way to get out of it as, as reasonably as possible. We probably weren’t expecting to fix it. 

Sabina
Well, it depends how you define fix. If fix is the end of a relationship, maybe that’s what you were seeking. 

Matt
In retrospect, yes. At the time you’re not thinking. No. There’s a, there’s a light at the end of that tunnel. You really don’t see that as a viable option. 

Sabina
Okay. So just in the context of this, of this conversation, it seems relevant that I was your couples therapist. And now we’ve become friends, and years have passed since we were in a therapy room. So when Matt alludes to being in therapy, of course I know what that process looked like for both of you. And actually, it’s a question I ask a lot of couples in the couples therapy space: what are you here to do? And often one person says, and they may not say it in front of the other, I think I’m here to work out how to leave the relationship and not, it’s not unusual for the other person to say I’m here to try and save the relationship. So we need to be clear upfront what we’re doing, because sometimes relationship counselling is about moving forward in the relationship, and sometimes it’s about ending the relationship. On that topic, I’ve had so many couples say to me over the years after they’ve separated, we’re going to do this differently. We’ve seen chaos and collateral damage in other friends and family, but we’re going to do this differently. So the intent is, is there for many, for many of us. But then the hurt sets in and the anger sets in and the resentment and the grief and suddenly things go awry. So I’m curious how you were able to navigate that from the story that you’ve just shared, to stay committed to a journey of, let’s call it a healthy, low conflict, separation and divorce.

Matt
I think it’s being committed to that statement. Like we never wavered from the fact that we were going to do it well. And I think people say that. But there was never a time where we thought or thought, I’m not going to do this. I’m going to, you know, lower myself to anger or resentment and feel the hurt or the rejection or whatever other emotions were coming up. And I dealt with them myself. I never took them into the breakup. And I think that was probably for me, the important part was sticking to that absolute goal. And I think, you know, at the time we said to the boys, like, we’re going to be the hero of this story. And it was, what is it that you want? And we knew they wanted us to be together. And the second thing they wanted us is to stay as a family. So that wasn’t a hard promise to keep. And whatever happened. Like I said to you once, we’ve never fought since we broke up. And you laughed. But I don’t remember really fighting. And there were times where it got tense. But I would just back out like there was no point in it. You thought we might have had a few fights, but I don’t remember really fighting. 

Jane
I actually think a lot of the time we get along better now and we co-parent beautifully. I believe, and I say we co-parent better than I think we would have in one house, actually. Which sounds weird, but I do. I think we complement each other really well. And because the boys might be with one or other of us, and it feels intense for that person who’s got them, the other person is fresh and clear. And I’ve come to Matt in very distressing times through teenage years. And he’s been a rock. And not saying he might not have been under the same roof, but I just think you have more in the tank. And so it’s probably the same with disagreements or when you’re feeling those feelings. As Matt said, you can go away and actually deal with those independently if you choose to. It’s a very conscious and intentional choice, and I think we both committed to the intention of. We promised these boys we were still a family. That means we need to genuinely be one. That means we need to spend time together. Not really, you know, feel like that’s uncomfortable or. And there were times, early days when it definitely was. But we always put them first and their need for that first and then would go away and, and work through what we needed to work through to make it feel more comfortable. 

Sabina
And you’ve both talked there about feeling all the feels and not bringing them into the family unit or the ex-couple unit. What did you do to help you process and and feel those things and or express them and work through them? 

Matt
I think, as Jane said, you take them away. Like you go and deal with them on your own. 

Sabina
But where do you take them? 

Matt
Well, for me, I think all through the intense breakup, it was with close friends. They were so important. So it’s building that community around you. Straight away and people who understand you, and it can be very small and it can be very tight, but it is surrounding yourself with people who you know you can lean on. We probably should do that all the time, but I think you only look for that when you’re in crisis. Then you build it and you can have that team for the rest of your life. Like you can pull it out of the cupboard whenever you want after that. But building a support system around you then was probably the most important thing for me at the time. And I say to people now, do that now even before you need it. Like surround yourself with people. So when you need to seek advice or solace or just comfort, you can go to those people and then just deal with it and don’t deal with it about the other person. Like it wasn’t about Jane anymore. It was about me. So I tried not to complicate how I felt with the breakup. They were sort of separate things. And just every time returning to that thing, we were a family and we promised we’d get through it and just continually returning to that.  

Jane
Not personalizing it, wherever you can. But for me, lots of therapy, lots of woo woo. Sound healing. Different, you know, witchcraft basically so on top of friends, I agree. Like number one and family and people that you trust, but also like a lot of investment on my part into what did I do to contribute to this because this is my reality and I created it. And what role did I play? And how do I need to show up differently as a result of that? 

Sabina
And that’s really the topic of this conversation is the importance of creating a social wraparound of supports. And that comes through family, comes through friends. It might be colleagues, neighbors, whoever’s in your tribe. So tell us a bit about the story of how you first communicated to your friends that you were separating and the kinds of ideas and strategies you employed to make sure that you weren’t doing this alone.

Jane
My first business was in PR and comms. So Matt always says, I wrote a press release about our breakup, which wasn’t far off. We crafted an email together, and the reason we did that is because the boys were so devastated. And so the last thing we wanted was for them to then go to families and parts of the community that they interacted with on a daily basis and face emotion that wasn’t aligned. Emotion or I guess, a narrative that wasn’t aligned with what Matt and I said, which was very much we are, still invite us both to events. Still, we will still both be coming to school things together. You know, we are a family and so we really wanted to communicate that. So that was support. The boys were supported in that. So that was really the main driver. And also just to quash the backchat basically. And say here we are both, this is what happened. This is how we feel about each other. This is what we’ve told the boys. We’d love your support in that. We would both love to. Don’t choose sides, basically. I don’t know, I forgot anything there.

Matt
It was also important to communicate what we were doing or our rationale behind it, like there wasn’t any cheating or abuse or anything that led to it. And so when we were saying, this is our choice, this is what we’ve decided to do and this is how we’re going to handle it. We didn’t allow the space then for outsiders to then step in and say, you’re wrong. You should be doing this like this was a conscious decision, not one made under any sort of duress. So that was I think that was really important for me. It was like, no, we’re in control of this. We’re not victims to it. And I still feel today that that is probably the hardest thing for other people going through. It is the pressure they feel from the outside world, be it their closed society or bigger world as it is that their marriage has failed. They’re a failure. What’s going to happen to you? What’s going to happen to the kids and all this doom and gloom that’s piled on you. And we weren’t trying to gloss over it, but we were saying, it’s okay, guys, we’re okay about this. It’s going to hurt. It’s going to be hard. We don’t know what it’s like. It’s changed, but we’re in control of it. And that was really important. I think that sort of shook a lot of people because they really didn’t know how to react to that approach, because most people think, you know, send flowers, like mourn it. And we were really kind of like, Let us deal with it. But it’s our choice.

Sabina
And I’m curious about two things there. One is people’s response to the comms strategy, Janey’s comms strategy. And the other is did you tweak your messaging to different markets? I am going I’m being a bit facetious, but did you have different commentary for the school community, the teachers, friends, family, colleagues? Or was it the same messaging that went out to everyone? 

Jane
Yeah, we sent a group BCC email, so we didn’t differentiate. You know, aside from our parents, that was the only. 

Matt
And it wasn’t, it wasn’t a press release, like it wasn’t to manage like in saying we didn’t need to manage this was our truth or this is what we’re saying we’re doing, and we just this is it. Like there wasn’t any need to tailor it or edit it for certain it was you. I think you have to take that stand. This is what we’ve decided to do. It’s our choice. We have a view on it and we’re going to move forward with it and take it like that. I think if you are victimized by it or you feel that you’re on the back foot for it, I think that’s when people can step in and take sides or or feel sympathy for you, or all of the things that you don’t really need when that’s going on. You want support, not pity. 

Sabina
Absolutely. And that’s actually something that a lot of people say when they’re told about a separation. I’m so sorry. Well, did people say that to you? 

Jane
Yeah, I mean I think the reaction, the reaction to the note was actually overall very positive because people were relieved to know what, why and how they could behave. So in that sense because the clarity a lot of people just want that clarity and direction. So in that sense, they were um, they were happy with that. But the “I’m sorry” was pretty pervasive. Also because it was a bit of a shock because it happened quite quickly, in the end, not necessarily between us, but yes. So I think there was a bit of shock that was I’m sorry. And also people, you know. We are like a fun family, you know? I think there’s a lot of other people when they say that, they’re often thinking about themselves and their interactions with you and how they. There’s a lot of projection in some of those reactions, which I now realize, I didn’t probably at the time, projection around their relationship and where they’re at and projection around how we fit into their world. 

Sabina
Yes. So what does it mean for them? What does it mean for their relationship? And if this can happen to Janey and Matt. Could it happen to me? 

Matt
And the one, the thing that was like that offended me the most was when people would say, well, have you thought about the kids. And it was of course we have, we’re doing this for them. And to think that the ending of a relationship would have a negative impact on the kids if you didn’t want it to. It was offensive. We were never going to let it affect the kids in a bad way. And that probably goes back to that manifesto that we were going to do it well. That’s why we did it well, because we’d promised the kids. And when people said, oh, what about them? And they’re going to worry about this? And have you thought about this? We were like, of course we have. And we’re going to make sure it’s fine. 

Sabina
And did you have any templates? Where did you get the idea that you could do this differently? 

Matt
It’s just who we are, I think. Yeah, I, I personally don’t think I, I have that sort of bone in my body that needs to I probably deal with hurt differently. Like I didn’t feel I didn’t need revenge or anger. And I probably was probably honest about the hurt. Like I think when people turn hurt into anger, that’s on them. And then the point scoring and the battle begins, whereas I that’s just not in my nature. But yeah, it takes effort, but so does leaving bags at doors and communicating through third parties. I would have found that much more exhausting than doing this or having two birthday parties, because you can’t be at the same, in the same room. That would have been so much harder to do than just swallowing your pride, dealing with your own stuff and moving on. 

Jane
And Matt, like I think we both are aligned in that. I mean that’s why we got married. Like our values are very similar. And so I think we wanted those values and the culture of our family to continue, even if the dynamic would be different within the family and the idea or construct of our family would be different. The philosophy and culture of our family, we still wanted to be able to maintain. And I think that’s what people lose sight of and they prioritize their own emotions or the things that they ideally are feeling in those moments, which is perfectly understandable a lot of the time. But I think that was really important to us. 

Matt
Yeah, and they speak about like a normal family. It’s not a normal family. And I’ve thought about this like the kids don’t have a normal family in inverted commas to compare the family that they now have. Their reality of a family is what we’ve grown with them. And so a lot of outsiders would say, oh your kids, they’re not going to handle this well. And they don’t have a parallel life where they lived in a family with two parents where they can say that was a better existence. Their reality is we had parents that were together until we were early teens, late teens. Our parents lived in separate homes. That is their normal. To them, a normal family is what we have to the outside as they have this image of a family is this. And I think if you can get rid of that template of what a family is from outsiders, not the kids, then it’s so much easier to deal with.

Sabina
And what was most helpful about friends and family that you told, the ones that responded in a way that that worked for you. How did they respond? 

Matt
With compassion, kindness and compassion. No judgment, no negativity towards it. And we pushed that as well. Like we never use the word fail. It just ended. And so there were people that could respond to that. They didn’t need to have a dog in that fight. They didn’t need to tell me how bad Jane was, or they didn’t need to tell me how doomed the kids were going to be. They were just friends that would listen. Try and cheer you up, spend time with you, and just literally be a friend. Like what you need in a friend. No pity. Just support and kindness. 

Jane
Yep. I’d agree with that. I also would add in there they would invite you to things because the one thing, the one thing I did really notice, and I’m now very conscious of, is that you get invited to a lot as a couple, and then all of a sudden when you’re not, when you’re an odd number, the invitations drop off. So I really noticed my friends making a big effort around that time, in particular my close girlfriends. And I really appreciated that because you’re already feeling really disconnected. So yeah, it’s just that sense of inclusion, I think was really beautiful. 

Sabina
And I know both of you work in your own businesses, so you’re not part of, you know, big corporates, but this is also a very relevant conversation to have in a workplace. And I think many colleagues will hear a colleague say, we’ve separated, I’ve separated, or I’m going through a divorce and they don’t know what to say. They particularly, they may think, they’re a colleague: I don’t want to overstep the boundary. I don’t want to say anything that’s going to set them off. I don’t want to make them cry at work. So they likely keep to themselves. They sort of smile politely and hope that the separated party will work it out. What are your thoughts or advice on people in a workspace for how we can talk about separation and divorce? Whether you’re a manager, a colleague, employer, whatever, whatever shape or form it takes.

Matt
I hope eventually, because the statistics are so heavy in terms of marriages ending, that it becomes a lot more normal. So it doesn’t. I know growing up and going to school, there would have been one divorced family. But now if it’s 1 in 2 or 1 in 3, the majority of people are separated. So if you can normalize that experience without being flippant about it, but if you change jobs, then someone says, oh well, congratulations, you’ve moved on with your life and that’s great. I don’t think you’d congratulate someone for their marriage ending, but you could also embrace the fact, oh, is there anything you need? And just support them. Because I just think we need to take the sympathy out of it. You can give someone sympathy because they feel sad, but don’t give them sympathy because their relationship has ended. Don’t mourn the relationship. Help the individual. The person. I think that’s probably the best way to do it.

Sabina
Because shame and stigma are still huge. A big part of separation and divorce, and not helpful for anyone in the mix. And you’re speaking to that beautifully, Matt.

Matt
Even people who talk to me now about it, who are who are thinking of that sort of thing. I feel the weight of, you know, especially their parents. The weight of their disappointment on them is one of the major factors. They’ll say, this is great, that’s great. But Mum and Dad are this. And I think that sort of pressure on someone who’s already going through something is something we don’t need. Like, I think going through this, if the boys go through it and potentially they probably will. Given the statistics and the way that society’s going, that I’ll never make them feel bad about moving on from a relationship. Just do it well.

Sabina
What was your experiences with your parents? And you can share as little or as much as you  like. 

Jane
Oh, they were I mean, still are, devastated. You know, very traditional. And they’re still married, though. Yeah, they were devastated. And obviously they’ve been able to still have Matt and the family as we have been at special events. We still do Christmas together and things like that. So it’s not like they’ve lost the contact with Matt, but they just have found it, and still do, like so hard to get their head around.

Matt
We had to give them those same assurances that we gave the kids. This is a family still, and I still consider them my ex in-laws, but I also consider them more than that. My kids’ grandparents, they are part of my family. That’s Jane’s parents. Yeah, I still consider them family. My parents, on the other hand, were just a lot more accepting of it. And could probably see the what we were we described as our family and said, oh, okay, so that’s your family. So in terms of Jane being present at things, they always love seeing her or her coming along to things. They’re still Jane, still their grandkids’ mother. There’s still a connection there. You don’t erase any of that when the relationship ends. And I think, again, if people were more accepting of that, it would be a lot easier for everyone to deal with. They’re still grandparents. They’re still my in-laws. They’re still connect that my parents are still friends with them. They’re still your parents as well. Yeah. And my parents are friends with Jane’s parents. So that that family should, should continue. When you say you’re going to keep a family together, you’re not just talking about your kids and your ex-partner. You’re talking about in-laws. Brothers in the family should extend further than that. And I think for the kids, that’s very comforting. But that also normalizes it a lot more, too. 

Sabina
And there’ll be people listening to this who think I want what they’ve got. I want this kind of separation. I want my ex-partner and I to have this kind of dialogue and speak with this level of respect and openness, and that’s their desire and their intent. And then someone throws a punch, metaphorically, I mean, or breaks out with anger or feels hopeless or feels hurt and and they go back to square one. What would you say to to those people listening who want this but feel stuck? 

Jane
Yeah, I’ve had lots of these conversations, as Matt touched on, when you separate and get divorced, you get a lot of people coming to you in the early stages of thinking about it before they’ve divulged it to sometimes anyone. And one of the big things they ask is about this, because I think it’s just such. It just weighs on people’s minds, particularly when they have kids. And the one thing I’d say is it’s just realizing that what is in your control and you can only control your emotions, your reactions and your behaviour and staying true to that as much as possible and taking accountability and responsibility for that, and also realizing that as much as possible, if you can show up with love and ease and calm, then that will minimize over time, because a lot of a lot of that tension comes from the reaction and the defensiveness that then is played back. So I think it’s realizing what a big role in your reality, those choices and what’s within your locus of control make, I think, and that’s what I’d say to them. It doesn’t it’s not perfect. It doesn’t mean that that won’t happen. But there’s also a sense of pride and satisfaction that you get from doing the work so that you do regulate your emotions and you do show up in a better way. And you do. Provide a really great example for your kids if you have them.

Matt
And that statistic about how much time you spend with your kids before 13. Like 80% of the time you’re going to spend with them. So what I realized is you’re actually a parent hands on for a very short period of time. So people with kids separating when you realize it’s not your entire life, it’s a small amount of years that you’ve got to get through as a co-parent. Anything beyond that is you having a relationship independently with your kids anyway. So I always focused on the fact that whatever happened, I wanted to be able to sit down with the kids at that time and keep it to myself or whatever. And they say, dad, you did really well. Mum lost her temper. Mum did this, but you didn’t without having to tell them. Let them discover that themselves. I never had to do that. But that would be my advice to someone in is just keep the moral high ground and it’ll pay you back at some stage so that you can say to your kids, when they’re 30, they’ll say to you, I really respect the way you handled it, even though 20 years earlier it was hell. And that reward is enough to keep me going through how to deal with it better. 

Sabina:

So often the way we show up in marriage is the way that we show up in a separation. The patterns, the communication styles follow us if we don’t make a conscious effort to change them. And if you both were married with the kind of dynamic and communications that you’re exhibiting today, I wonder if the marriage would be different. So it begs the question, how did you fine tune the skills of respect, of communication, of openness, of curiosity? That’s it in front of me today.

Matt:

Well, I always thought about it like it referred to it as not having a safety net. Like when you’re married, you have this sort of safety net of, you can disagree about who does the dishes or what colour the sky is or whatever. And so you can argue about it and you can, you know, you can not talk to each other for a few hours and then resolve it later on. But when you’re separated, there is no safety net. So you have to be so careful with your words and actions, especially in the early days. Because it is so sensitive. So if you argue about who left a plate in the sink, that could end up in court when you’re divorced because there isn’t that safety net of, oh, well, we can argue, but we’re just going to end up in the same bed. And, you know, we’ll get up the next day and have cornflakes. Like that was, I think, just being super delicate in the early about what you said. Your tone. Anything. No. Like sarcasm and anything like that. It has no place in those really delicate early days because you are still hurt, so you’re raw, but it’s also a new normal. And so navigating that, and I also think back to one of the earlier points, a lot of arguments between couples that are together are about parenting. So under the same roof, parents, couples argue about how they parent or what they did or their different styles and things like that. When you’re separated, that becomes a bit easier. So to Jane’s really earlier point, that’s why parenting you’re in separate houses. So again, it’s a lot easier to navigate that because, you know, I think of my friend, 60% of their arguments would be over parenting. 

Sabina:

But what you said earlier is really salient. I think that you’re very aware of the way you speak to each other, what you say. You don’t take each other for granted. You think before you speak. That’s what you were doing in the post separation phase? Yeah. That served you well. How would you answer that, Janey? 

Jane
I think Matt also did a really good job of when, if and when it was getting a bit heated, and it was usually me getting annoyed with doing this or that. He would just step back and own his part. So I do feel like our communication is different to what it was when we were together. And I don’t know, I guess that’s a combination of living separately. Having that headspace, perspective, maybe more gratitude. I have more gratitude for Matt. I speak to Matt about like, about people I’m dating. Vice versa. We welcome other partners in. I feel like we have each other’s back. Even though. Yeah, and not that I, of course I did when we were married, but I guess it’s a transition in the type of relationship and interaction, but it’s still got the depth of love and respect. And that’s how I speak about Matt as well. Like, I talk to new partners and say, I will always love Matt. I and if they feel threatened by that, which they have at times, I. That’s fine, because that’s not changing. Like, and I always say I wouldn’t have wanted anyone else to be the boy’s dad. So. And I can really celebrate that. So I think the gratitude piece is big. Like what other? Sure, we’re not together, but I can still have deep gratitude for Matt. And I feel like that’s reciprocated. 

Matt
Absolutely. I mean, gratitude was one of the drivers for me. Getting through it was the gratitude that you gave me a family out of it. So there’s no regrets. There’s no remorse. There’s no winding back the clock. That sense of gratitude again kept me sort of buoyant through any low times or any thoughts towards Jane. You know, you’d have people saying, oh, why are you buying her a birthday present? Like, why are you going to your ex-wife’s birthday? Why? It’s like the gratitude is still there for the family I have. And I think that’s a really I found that a really strong thing to carry with me. And that really helped a lot.

Sabina:

Yeah, there’s something I. There’s something that you’ve both said there that I think it take away whether you’re married, single, divorced, dating around the core factors that feed a relationship, not just in separation. You did both just mention dating and partners. Can you just share a little bit about what that looks like now? No details needed, but how do you, you’ve talked about this high level of respect. What would you do if one of you dated a partner that you thought was woeful for the other? 

Matt
I think. Oh, look. Do you know what? We wouldn’t have to do anything because the kids would do it for us. Okay. Like, I mean, like, again, it’s that sense of family and the boys that we’ve grown into men now, that a woeful partner wouldn’t get through them. I wouldn’t need to say anything, to be honest. So we’re also constantly reminded about how proud we are of what we have grown with the kids. And so, yeah, I just I’d rely on that. I’d just say them. You tell her. 

Jane

Yeah. And hopefully we’re a bit more have a bit more discernment. But I think we would speak up if there was, if there was something we had a concern about. That was a deep concern for sure. Like I would feel comfortable and I would want to do that. I want Matt to do that for me and vice versa. Because also, even though the boys are adults now, that person is still a big part in our lives and in the boys lives. So I think I would appreciate, and I would very much take on board Matt’s opinion and still do. Um, in the aftermath of various relationships. So, you know, I value that. I want, I want Matt’s opinion. It’s important to me that like that, my partner gets along with Matt. And yeah, we always, I always would welcome with open arms someone who, like, we made the decision not to be together. Why would I begrudge Matt? I want him to be incredibly happy with someone that he deserves to be.

Matt
We were lucky to in the age of the kids at the time, like I, I think if you had really young kids and you were introducing a partner into a domestic situation, so, you know, bath time and dinner and, and blending a family that’s very different. Like, we’ve never like, the boys have never lived with you and a partner and they’ve never lived with me and a partner. It’s always been dating and stuff. And now that they’re older, it’s even more independent, so it’s not as big an issue for us as it would have been if they were a lot younger, and you were introducing someone into their day to day life, so that sort of helps. But yeah, it’s not it’s not fun out there. 

Sabina
That’s another poddy, Matt. Okay. We might do that for another. It’s not dating after after divorce. What do you know now that you wish you’d known eight years ago. 

Matt
That it was going to be okay, that it was actually going to end fine? It actually turned out really well. Like, I’m really happy with the family we have. I’m really happy with the life. I’m happy with who I’ve become through it. And I don’t know what would have happened to me or the family if we stayed on that path. Like, you don’t know it and there’s no parallel universe to compare it to, no sliding doors. So and that would be the advice I’d give to someone, is that there is a way to do it and it can work out. Just be kind to yourself.

Jane:
Mine would be more focused, I think. On myself and what the gift it’s given me is more being more reflective and more accountable for things. Um, but yeah, I love our life. I do. I’m so proud of our family and the boys and what we’ve created together. 

Matt
Still creating. 

Jane
Well, yeah, I guess. Yeah. Job’s not done quite yet. But. Yeah, exactly. New memories traveling together. And, you know, celebrating more adult moments with them is really cool. So we make so many assumptions and we just assume based on, I don’t know, things we see in the media construct that our community creates for us or our upbringing creates for us. And so we assume that things are going to go a certain way, and we base a lot of our decisions and a lot of our emotional angst on that. I’ve really learned not to do that. Like, what are the facts? What do I know? What can I control and just focus on that? Yeah, I’ve really learn a lot about construct and the role that that and various assumptions that we make can play on our emotional, uh, ill feeling, uh, particularly when we’re going through something hard. And I’ve learned to focus less on that and focus more on what I can have impact on. 

Sabina
Well, thank you both for sharing. Because, you know, when we started, you said it’s kind of hard to go back. You don’t want to go back. You don’t want to. You’re not those people that you were eight years ago. And you’ve created this. It’s a sad state of affairs that this is an unusual story. And we want this to become more of the norm, that the end of a relationship doesn’t mean the end of a family unit. It doesn’t mean the end of respect, and it doesn’t mean the end of new possibilities for us as individuals or as a family. So you both tell a powerful story and you share it so, so beautifully and with a lot of inspiration. I think it’ll impact many. So thanks for your time. 

Matt
Thank you. 

 

Jane
Pleasure. 

 

Sabina
At The Separation Guide. We measure our success by our ability to keep you out of conflict and get through separation in the best possible way. Protecting your long term health, wealth, and happiness. The Separation Guide Plan provides you with step by step guidance on all stages of separation and aims to empower you with the knowledge, expert resources, skills and strategies to take each step with confidence. Every specialist attached to our platform is measured on their ability to do the same, and everyone signs an ethical charter showing. We all believe that court should be seen as a last resort. If you’d like to learn more about your options in separation, or you want to be put in touch with professionals to guide you through, please go to the Separation Guide and complete our three minute interactive Q&A, or check out our other podcasts and blogs. If you found the information today useful, please subscribe, share and leave us a review. It’s a great way to help our podcast reach. Others going through separation. In the spirit of reconciliation, The Separation Guide acknowledges the traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and their connections to land, sea and community. We pay our respect to their elders, past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples today.